you’ve used or themes that you've used, energy, intensity, the ability to go global.
Perhaps using some of those frameworks, if you like, would you pinpoint some great examples of how universities, without necessarily naming them per se, or contacts that you've made, or case studies, exemplars of good practice of doing these things? Because I might preface, this is the word I'm searching for here, by saying I go across the globe, and I have no shame in saying this. It's kind of maybe a competitive thing I'm saying. I referred to sport as entertainment a few moments ago. If I didn’t, that's effectively what I meant.
Maybe in some cultures, particularly the USA, they can see that and they can build on it, so they kind of get it. I've just come out of formal academia, but I'm still in it. I'll always be in it. I sometimes think is it tokenism that they just say, "Well, we've got a social media account. We're going to do social media." But they don't actually get it or they don't actually do it. Well, I don't wonder, because one of the reasons I want to talk to you in this way today and with your expertise and reputation, and it is good, and it's really captivating lots of audiences out there, perhaps you can give us some more insight into that.
Eric Stoller:
I think a lot of organisations, and you hit on it, they'll say, "We have to be in the social media space." They might not necessarily define what that means. They'll put up a bunch of accounts, and they’ll start playing around with different channels. They won't necessarily have any goals or objectives in mind with what they're doing with it. I'm a big fan of experimenting with new social media channels, trying different digital this or that. At the same time, you want to connect it to what you're trying to accomplish. Do you have goals?
You talked about universities. I just saw a report the other day that was talking about institutions that have an Instagram presence that is driven towards recruitment efforts are doing really well with international student recruitment, and that they’re linking it back to their Instagram accounts. For me, that's connected to strategy. That's connected to what you're trying to accomplish. It’s not just we're taking pictures of our beautiful campus just because. We're trying to do something with it.
A university library that is using Twitter for customer service, and to just share the vibe of the library. Students are taking exams and they're looking for quiet spaces, and the library is engaging with them. There's a lot of data on student engagement, and the more engaged students are, the more successful they will be at university. Digital engagement is an extension of that engagement that used to happen just in the hallway conversations, the face-to-face interactions.
The other thing too with social, and I'd be remiss if I didn't mention this, is that it's not the end all, be all. You have the on-campus conversations still, the face-to-face conversations. You have the one-to-one Twitter engagement that happens, or you have the Instagram photo that's seen and liked and commented on. It’s all interconnected. It's just part of this bigger sphere of how we all keep connected with one another in an increasingly global, increasingly mobile world.
Alan Seymour: I think that point, I wish you and others, and if I had to spread one kind of message consistently, in many ways part or all of what you've just said would be it. The number of people, if you look at communication and good communication, and interference and noise that stops that good communication, well, maybe some or all of those things are present in what all different social media channels are doing. I use Twitter, and I use other platforms. You made the reference, that's how we met. It's how I met lots of people who I'm now engaged with in conferences and writing articles and ultimately publishing stuff in the world of sports business.
I've often said to people, "Don't just believe the fact that you've pressed a button means that you've communicated." It's the classic student argument or default excuse, "I have contacted you. Did you not see my email?" And/or well, I'm now connected to the great and the good, because I've got an extra follower, and here's the follower. It's only the beginning. It's what you do. The best sale is the best opportunity to get another sale. You start the roll out and the momentum of that.
I think sometimes as well, give me a view on this, a typical open day might mean that the social media puts some presence out there and starts to use it, but does it seem cold? Is it sanitised? Is it just from ... a social media manager for the university, or an executive? Because one of the things that I'm absolutely passionate about is students do it well, or students are involved in this. They’re the best people to not only talk to and have, but actually get them to do it.
In your experience, give us some examples maybe, Eric, of how that actually is being applied across the educational space?
Eric Stoller: You see an increase in ambassador programs at universities, where they’re bringing in students. A lot of times ideally they're paying them to run some of their social media accounts.
Alan Seymour: We're now talking about ambassadors and student ambassadors within universities, Eric. Tell us a little bit about experiences you have,... how students should be taking on board this on behalf of the universities?
Eric Stoller: Sure. You can tell a lot about a university by the way they handle their social media presence. Is it a comfortable place? Are they open?
Are they warm? Is there a personality behind what they're posting on social media? Student ambassador programs are a really great way for institutions to create peer-to-peer interaction, because students connecting with other students, there's a real authenticity there. There’s a real lived experience there. Students can say this is what it’s actually like as a student who’s in a particular course, or living in a particular accommodation.
That’s a lot more real than maybe a more conventional marketing or PR-based communication that you get from someone who’s working at the institution. Now, that being said, there are a lot of really good social media professionals out there who are working at institutions who do a great job of embracing these new technologies, these new channels.
You were talking about open days a little while ago, and I think the really neat thing about open days for universities is they're exploring new channels to connect with students, students who are actually there at open days as well as prospective students who might just be tuning in. They're using Snapchat and they’re using a variety of ways to connect with these students, Live Instagram or Instagram Stories. I know there's been a lot of use of WhatsApp and some vloggers.
It really gives an institution the chance to show who they are in a unique way. Because after a while, everybody starts to sound the same with their website and their mission and vision. This gives the institution the chance to really shine and showcase the real humanity of the place.
Alan Seymour: I mean Eric, that is such a beautiful, and it is kind of nicely emotionally and almost is personalising and perhaps taking away some sanitisation, or almost some robotic approaches. I think you’ve made some really great points. They transfer and translate very much across lots of different sectors. We've talked about some of those sectors. I don’t want to necessarily go down the sport route per se here. Just picking you up on...
Eric Stoller: Can't we go to sport?
Alan Seymour: Go on.
Eric Stoller: I would love to talk about sports in terms of student athletes, if that's okay.
Alan Seymour: Perfect. Tell us a little bit about maybe then, because I did a recent interview where an ambassador, but a professional consultant was advising athletes how to use social media. Take that as a scenario. How would you advise professional athletes to use social media, Eric? If it's not too much of a fast ball.
Eric Stoller: Exactly. That's a great angle. I think that, well, first and foremost, I would talk about it in the context of how I talk about digital literacy and digital capability for all people, and walk it back. When someone becomes a professional athlete, the time to work on their digital presence and develop it and mature it has almost passed in a way. Because who they are and how they post and what they post, good or bad, is already formulated.
However, when you look at, say, student life and student athletes and what they're posting and sharing, there's this perception that young people by default have this innate digital native ability to use all things related to technology, social media, what have you. Of course, we know that that's not the case. Everybody has this spectrum of fluency that they bring to the table, and so young people coming in from, say, school to university, or whatnot, they've been using social media and their digital presence for just peer-to-peer interactions, social life, and maybe building up a bit of a reputation if they have been a sports star, and people have started to tune into them early on.
There's a sense of, what does it mean to engage in these digital spaces in a way that benefits you as someone who’s posting, engages with your audience, and yet doesn't cause you issues with your image or get you into trouble, or cause harm to other people? I think especially when you're a professional athlete, you're under the microscope. You've got media always wanting to pay attention to what you're doing. You've got fans from all over the place. Everything you post, even if it's online for just a few seconds, is subject to a greater level of scrutiny than other people.
I think that my number one piece of advice for professional athletes posting on social media is: always think before you post. It sounds so cliché, but that's the advice that holds true for everyone.
Alan Seymour: Eric, it's just amazing, because I did a guest lecture a few weeks ago at the University of Worcester, and I produced this slide which was effectively, it was comparing it with the hierarchy of needs and how we grow through from the solid base and reach a safety point. I said if you relate that to social media, advice particularly strong in safety is just what you've said. Traffic light system for me. Red, stop. Amber, pause, think. Is it going to be okay? If you’re happy with it, then press the button. It's a mantra almost that I’ve used as a piece of advice.
Let’s build on this, because I think it's a fascinating subject here. Something that you said, again, traditional versus non-traditional, or you've even I think in some part of the interview today almost inferred or used the word, well, you've certainly used the word experiment. If I took that further and maybe do something a little bit more disruptive, or risky even, would you recommend this?
Alan Seymour:
At this conference that I've referred to earlier, another great example, because they won the best award at, I think, it was for football business or something related. It's a well-known football club just gained promotion.... Part of the award and maybe the biggest reason, great advocates, great ambassadors in the use of social media.
They reverted back to, it's still digital, it's still a newer form of communication, but it's not the newest, email. They actually sent out over a million personalised emails to a relevant database telling them about all the highlights, giving them all the information. It was just so well-received. It showed this marketing mix, as you call it, absolutely right, but also the fact that you need to find these blends or the blending aspect of doing communication. Obviously, we’re talking in the context here today specifically about social media.
Let me just take it on a little bit more here, Eric, if I may. If you were giving another piece of advice to career aspirants here - I mean you are now an independent consultant. What does an independent consultant do? Because clearly we're having this interview here and we've connected through social media, and obviously you've built up a reputation talking about higher education and the use of social media. Do you get directly involved with brands, organisations, or are there some pieces of advice or thoughts, insights that you could give to my audience on that?
Sure. I've been doing this now for almost seven years full-time since I actually left a rather enjoyable, fulfilling full-time job to try this experiment, as I called it back then, in consulting. It's taken me from the US and from working in the US, to Canada, to Mexico, to now being based in the UK and working in Europe. I spoke at a conference late last year in New Zealand. You get the chance to explore the world as an education consultant.
One of the things that I think almost always comes up with my consultations with my clients - and a lot of times those are going to be universities - is I will be brought in to talk about social media or digital engagement, and that could mean a variety of things. It could be the top-level marketing and comms for the institution. It could be what the careers office is doing. It could mean what their student services is doing. Could be from a learning and teaching perspective.
Every single time I'm brought in with social media and digital as the key focus, a large part of the conversation turns into a conversation on organisational culture and a willingness to learn new things, every single time. Because the social media channels have been around there for a long time. Like you said, Twitter's been around for quite a while. Facebook's been around now since 2004. YouTube has been around forever, practically. New apps are coming down the pipeline, but the thing is it's not that the apps aren’t there, it's what it is that’s getting people to use them, to try them out. What are the motivations involved, the incentives involved?
As an organisation, are you rewarded for trying new things? Are you keeping up with your current audience? A lot of times when I'm speaking at events, I will literally ask the audience and I will say, "How many of you are afraid of using Snapchat?" Every time people will raise their hand, and I'll say, "You're not afraid of the telephone. You're not afraid of email. You've got to think of these apps as communication and engagement platforms."
The organisational culture and almost the ethos of lifelong learning, that's consistently something that comes up in each and every one of my consultations.
Alan Seymour: I mean, Eric, again, the echoes, the resonance here, it's just amazing. It is. I go to conferences like you do, and I always say, and I did a panel leading, moderating, talking about this. I was saying, "Shout. Go back to your CEOs. Go back and say, 'We can't continue to be so traditional or afraid to do something.'" Even the responses back, like you've just said with the Snapchat thing, without necessarily being too provocative here or naming, phrases like, "Well, you've done all your fun and entertainment, now come back and do your day job or your proper job."
I still think there’s this kind of reluctance, or this understanding, I suppose, and education is clearly going to play a big part. Resonate definitely with that. Change has to happen. Change sometimes can be slow. It can be dynamic by nature, but the very nature, I think, of digital particularly and now social media and all that space that we're talking about today, organisations and cultural changes need to happen.
I'm going to try and bring some summations. Sadly, we’re running out of time, but I want to continue a little bit more if I may, Eric, and then close.
Eric Stoller: Sure.
Alan Seymour: I should give you some time to tell my audience how we can make contact with you, etc. Using my metaphor or analogy earlier here of a sporting nature, the fast ball, the curve ball, whatever analogy I can use here. MOOC, tell us what MOOC means, what your views of it are. Does it work? Is it sustainable? Is it a substitute? Just particularly obviously in education. I'm going to put a little caveat to that maybe, that I've now come out of formal education. I've never come out of education and I will continue to be involved with academia, students, and everything, because the world of education is my passion, and it's my life.
I would never want to be on the side of the argument that says MOOC is everything, or we only use online education now. I have a feeling that some people are looking at online education as a panacea, or as the be all and end all, or maybe in some cases as a substitute for everything that may be wrong or everything that may be logistically difficult in a kind of formal, traditional higher education university environment. Some thoughts on that, if I could ask you, Eric.
Eric Stoller: That’s definitely another curve ball. That’s like saying, "Hey, we’re going to run a 5K, except the distance is now 26.2 miles.” Alan Seymour: Correct.
Eric Stoller: MOOCs, of course, are massive open online courses.
Alan Seymour: Thank you.
Eric Stoller: It was all about scaling learning. How can you bring about educational modules or courses or classes depending on where you're located and what they're called to a large number of people, with an online delivery system. I think that there was a lot of hype around MOOCs early on. Just like with a lot of ed tech initiatives, there's a lot of hype, and there's a lot of versus reality. I think that for me, online learning represents a space or a place for us to continue the conversation of learning with people who aren't... it's not geographically bound.
Are MOOCs the answer to everything? Of course not. I think they're useful, but I think also it's good to separate the moneymaking initiatives from learning and from actually widening participation. I think MOOCs as a vehicle for widening participation or opening up access to these amazing institutions of learning, that's a wonderful opportunity. Now, whether or not it actually comes to fruition for making money for these places, that's a completely different question.
Alan Seymour: Absolutely. Eric. Look, I'm going to bring some summation. We're almost touching my magic 30 minutes here ... I think the insights and the pointers you've made, what you've clearly done, and I congratulate you on this - I’m not being patronising at all; far from it - is that my audience, I've always believed sport is global, sport touches so many people socially, culturally, maybe politically, but I won't go down there necessarily.
Equally, the values and the distinctiveness and all the ways in which it could be done, lifestyle particularly today and the need to communicate, social media has really embellished the opportunities that exist. If you were making some closing pieces of advice to would-be
